Interview: Minister for Disabled People Tom Pursglove on Where Is The Interpreter, Access to Work delays and more (BSL)

Following his speech at the British Deaf Association’s first ever British Sign Language (BSL) conference, during which he announced the 16 members of the UK Government’s non-statutory BSL Advisory Board, Minister for Disabled People Tom Pursglove sat down with The Limping Chicken‘s Liam O’Dell to discuss the UK Government’s continued failure to provide an in-person BSL interpreter for press conferences, Access to Work delays, and his first BSL lesson.

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Today is the is the BSL Conference, marking one year since the BSL Act passed. Obviously, we’re under no pretences that the BSL Act grants no new legal rights to Deaf people. However, if we look at the government, what new policies, or what new measures or ambitions does the government have to really build upon the Act, and either look to give new rights to people in whatever way shape or form, or really kind of build upon the success of the Act?

So for me, the driving force behind this is about improving accessibility and inclusivity within our society, and I think that government should be leading the way in that work. For example, accessible communications is a really important part of that. I had the first meeting earlier this week of the refreshed ministerial disability champions, and the message that went out from that from me – who was also chairing it as the Minister for Disabled People – is that we absolutely have to lead by example in this area.

I want our society to be more inclusive for disabled people and for Deaf people in particular, and I think the BSL Act and the requirements of it will really help to structure that work, with the reporting duty on the Secretary of State to advise how we’re getting on as a government around improving the accessibility of our communications and having BSL front and centre around that, that affords scrutiny.

Of course, the Advisory Board will be really important in all of this, drawing on that lived experience, drawing on that professional experience and all the ideas that those members have, and it’s been great to meet some of them today, and of course, to spend some time with Craig Crowley, the co-chairman, in recent times. There is a whole engine room of ideas about things that we can do to make sure that our communications are as accessible as possible as government, that I think then sets an example and a standard that I hope others will want to follow, because there’s a duty on all of us to be good allies to Deaf people, and the more we can do to push that along, the better.

You talked about setting an example. I’ve spoken to many Deaf people here today who would be itching to ask you this question, which is around the fact that you’re here celebrating the government’s work on BSL and the BSL Act and its involvement on it, yet we’re still seeing…

Even today, judgment has been handed down in the case concerning ‘Where Is The Interpreter’. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that campaign, but it’s around the accessibility of government briefings. 276 compensation cases, dismissed by the by the judge who agreed with the government that they weren’t submitted in time.

Do you not think it’s a little bit hypocritical to come here today and celebrate the government’s role in supporting BSL, and at the same time, refusing and failing to provide an interpreter?

So I think front and centre in all of this is recognising the enormous contribution of campaigners over many years to bring about this legislative change, and the difference that I genuinely believe that that will make as we move forward. I’ve actually been in the House [of Commons] and then at this conference this afternoon, so I’ve not seen the detail of the particular judgement that you allude to and I would like to take that away and ponder it and consider where we go from here and any learning from that.

For me, I really genuinely believe that we need to make sure that our government communications are as accessible as possible, and that BSL is front and centre as part of that. If there are steps that we can take on that journey, working with Deaf people to get this right, I absolutely want to do that. That’s precisely why I want to work really closely with Craig, and with the 16 members who’ve been appointed over recent days, to get this right. I know that they’ve got ideas and suggestions about how we can firstly, and principally get those government communications right, but also how we can take steps forward as a society more generally.

Because the previous argument against including an interpreter in the room for government briefings was that there were issues with social distancing. Obviously, that rule has now been completely eradicated with the scrapping and the repealing of the Coronavirus Act. So what argument has the government got now for not continuing to provide an interpreter?

So, for example, I see real benefit that Prime Minister’s Questions every week, Mr Speaker stands up at the beginning of those proceedings every week, without fail, and makes it clear to the House, and to the country as a whole…

We’re talking about ministerial briefings.

…That there is BSL interpretation available through the BBC service and I pay tribute to the BBC, actually, for the accessibility.

But that’s a government responsibility.

But they’ve played an amazing part in helping to achieve that. I am very willing and very keen to look at what more we can do in this regard, and have those conversations within government about how we can improve, for example, online content, how we can improve communications that reassures the government more generally. I think that those sorts of briefings, and Downing Street meetings and government meetings, in a way, and the briefing sessions around that, if there’s more we can do we should definitely look at that.

It’s taken legal action to get to that point. It sounds like you’re only now realising the importance of this, when surely the fact that you had to be taken to court … indicates an importance?

I want to work very closely with the Advisory Board to make sure that we get this right. They will have good ideas…

They’ve been pretty clear.

…Real insight and real experience, and I’m looking forward to spending time with those members and with Craig as its chairman, to help us to do this jointly, to move forward, and to make meaningful change and meaningful improvement, and that’s what we’ll do.

"I want to broaden the use of BSL, making sure that everybody in our communities is a good ally. I believe that there is a duty a responsibility on all of us, within our communities and within our society as a whole to be exactly that" – Tom Pursglove MP. #BSLConf

— Liam O'Dell (@LiamODellUK) March 17, 2023

 

On Access to Work: massive issues because of the backlogs of Deaf claimants, and we did a report on The Limping Chicken around how there’s providers of services for Deaf BSL users that are being owed thousands – and I’m talking, I think one of them was £90,000, something in thousands of figures, we’re talking – in payments that are not being paid. What’s going on there? Why has that happened?

As I said very publicly in the House yesterday, I’m not satisfied in terms of where we are in relation to Access to Work, and I am leading some very focused work within the Department for Work and Pensions on this. You will know that over recent weeks and months, in relation to PIP waiting times, we’ve seen very considerable progress. We’re now down to about 14 weeks, and I’d like to look at what more we can do and part of that will be digitalising the process and helping to really streamline this, making sure we get the signposting right, and the prompts and the accessibility.

There are some very similar principles that equally apply to Access to Work backlogs, driving forward that digitalisation of Access to Work is going to be really important in this regard.

There’s a passports plan isn’t there?

Yeah, and that, where we’ve actually seen some real success. But there’s also, for example, some steps that we are already taking that I believe will see meaningful progression around these waiting times.

For example, putting some additional resource – some extra manpower, effectively, and womanpower – into getting these applications processed more quickly, getting these bills paid; some improvements around trying to streamline the processes around the amount of evidence has been supplied, along with quotations, for example, particularly around travel costs, for example.

If you’ve got particular examples of cases, please do share them with me – I’d be really happy to look at it. As I say, this is a big priority for me. I’m not satisfied with where we are in terms of some of those wait times at the moment. I believe that some of the steps we are taking will make a really meaningful difference.

This is a flagship scheme that provides really valuable support for many people to help support employment opportunities into work, but also the retention of roles, and I’m ambitious for this, because I think in this wider landscape of the reforms that we’ve been announcing in recent days, Access to Work clearly is going to play an important role and we need to make sure that it is the best possible service, that digitalization piece will be important too, because the more we can do to try and streamline, the better.

How’s your own BSL learning coming along?

So it’s very early days. I’ve had one session and obviously, my ministerial diary is packed, as well. But this is a real priority. It is something that I want to have a go at doing, because as I say, I think that there is a responsibility on all of us to try and be good allies. So I want to try and help play my part, show a little bit of leadership and a little bit example on this.

I can’t promise that the outcome is going to be brilliant, but I’m trying my best. Steady but surely, I hope we’ll make some progress, and I’m looking forward to some more lessons over the course of the coming weeks and months.

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Photo: UK Parliament.

By Liam O’Dell. Liam is an award-winning Deaf freelance journalist and campaigner from Bedfordshire. He can be found talking about disability, theatre, politics and more on Twitter and on his website.