“I want to let the hearing audience know what it’s like to be deaf.” Emily Howlett interviews Rose Ayling-Ellis before tonight’s BBC documentary broadcast (BSL)

Posted on June 26, 2023 by


Rose Ayling-Ellis, a white woman with long blonde hair, smiles as she looks off-camera to the left.

Rose Ayling-Ellis: Signs For Change airs tonight, Monday 26th June, at 9pm on BBC One and BBC iPlayer.

Ahead of the broadcast tonight, Limping Chicken’s Emily Howlett sat down for a chat with Rose:

EMILY
Hello! I just want to say thank you for including Limping Chicken in your press meetings; it’s so lovely to be able to talk to you in BSL and find out more about your upcoming documentary.

ROSE
I always want to be interviewed by the Limping Chicken! It’s part of the deaf community, and it’s really important to me to stay involved.

EMILY
So, I saw the documentary and I cried…

ROSE
Oh! Brilliant!

EMILY
Haha! You wanted to make me all emotional, crying my eyes out?!

ROSE
Yes, kind of. You’re the first deaf person to watch it who wasn’t involved in making it. A lot of hearing people have watched it because the industry is very hearing and they’ve seen the promotional press. But you’re the first deaf!

EMILY
I feel very privileged! As a deaf person, I found myself watching every new scene and going “Yes, I know that feeling!” or being able to really strongly relate to you. I think hearing people who watch the show will definitely find it an emotional experience, but differently. Instead of relating, it’ll be, “I didn’t know that!”

ROSE
That was really a priority for me. I want to let the hearing audience know what it’s like to be deaf. I want deaf people to enjoy the documentary, of course, but I really wanted to use it as an opportunity to educate. It’s vital that there’s more representation of deaf people and deaf culture in the mainstream media, because there just isn’t enough on TV at the moment. And I’m really pleased you feel you can relate to it – that’s what I wanted.

EMILY
That leads us nicely to my next question! Now you have this huge profile, you’re pretty much ‘The Deaf’ that everyone knows (laughing), how does that feel? You didn’t ask for it, but now you are a spokesperson for the community. You say in the documentary that sometimes people now expect all deaf people to be like you, lovely and able to speak well! But that’s not true, and I imagine it can be frustrating.

ROSE
Of course I feel a bit of pressure, because now when people think of deafness, quite often they will think of me. And that does happen, that they then think every deaf person will be like me. We all know there’s so many deaf people out there who are achieving really impressive things – like Chris, the amazing architect we meet in the documentary. There are just so many of us who are successful, and the mainstream world doesn’t know enough about it. People think we all hide at home, never going out, living really sad lives and it’s just so far from the truth! My appearance on Strictly makes people think I’m inspirational because I’m out there achieving things, but that’s only because they don’t know what rich lives deaf people lead anyway. It frustrates me a bit to be called inspirational for that reason. To be called ‘inspirational’ just for being on TV, just means we don’t see enough deaf people on TV. If there were more of us, then I don’t think I’d be so ‘inspirational’ anymore.

EMILY
Ah, well, I don’t know about that. There’s definitely something you have that is uniquely Rose, and we love it. The things you’re achieving in the hearing world are amazing, and you stay so positive even though it must be tough at times.

ROSE
Thank you! Since Strictly Come Dancing, it’s honestly been such a crazy time. It’s been so great, but I’ve also had to learn how to look after myself. I’ve realised I love educating people, but as a deaf person that can become a big responsibility. I have to remind myself to enjoy it as well, because I love what I do, I love acting, and as long as there’s a balance then it’s fantastic. So, I can make a documentary about being deaf, to educate and share my story, but I’m also acting, which is for me. That’s my passion, and I do it for me so I’ve got balance. But I suppose my acting is still educating, too, because people see and work with a deaf person, so it’s like the saying “hit two birds with one stone”, you know?

EMILY
Yes, you can do the work you love but just happen to open people’s minds at the same time. I think that’s so great, and it’s important to take care of yourself. You’re only one person, and deaf people have such different experiences and stories; you can’t represent everyone, and yet you sort of have to. Any deaf person will meet a hearing person who says “Oh I sign a little!”, and if we’re negative, that might be the only impression that person ever has of the deaf community.

ROSE
It can be so hard for us as deaf people that we’re constantly meeting people who have never had any experience of deafness, and we have to teach them everything. One of the things I hope the documentary will do is allow people to see into our community without us having to tell everyone individually! We won’t have to constantly show people the basics of deaf life and communication, or Access To Work, or how to work with interpreters, or why there should be free BSL classes for deaf children, so we don’t have to fight for those things and can achieve more.

EMILY
People can watch the documentary, learn from it, and then we can arrive places and not have to educate everyone every time. We can just get cracking! That’s the dream!

ROSE
That is the dream!

EMILY
Talking of dreams… Strictly Come Dancing! Wow. That must have been such an experience for you – it certainly was for us as viewers! You mention in the documentary that they really focused on what you could do, rather than what you couldn’t. Has that changed anything for you, in terms of working in a very hearing industry?

ROSE
Yes, they didn’t always get it perfectly right but it was absolutely different. On previous jobs there was always a sense of “oh, can Rose do that? I’m not sure she can.” I would have to prove I can, and that they could ask more of me, they don’t need to patronise me or think I have to do less than others. There can be a fear of trying new things, and a fear of offending, which makes people wary of working with deaf people. So when I started to dance on Strictly, suddenly a lot of people, in the TV industry and at home, had the realisation that deaf people can.

EMILY
Exactly. And I think that was also the perfect show for you. You love to dance, right? Did you know before Strictly?

ROSE
No! I did a little bit of ballet when I was younger, but I quit after a few years. I was in a group full of hearing children and it wasn’t really accessible to me. I’ve seen some home videos recently and I’m basically one step behind the others all the time, because I’m taking a visual cue from them!

EMILY
Oh my, that was the same for me, but I only lasted a year at ballet! It’s interesting, talking to you, I feel like so much is similar, and yet you’re younger than me. I talk to people who are older, and it’s the same. I feel like down the years things have stayed the same for deaf kids… I hope that’s starting to change now.

ROSE
Yes. That’s why I think it’s so great that the team for this documentary included Ted Evans, a deaf director, and Cathy Heffernan, a deaf producer. It was the first time I’d worked with more than one deaf person behind the camera and it was so lovely to be able to get their support, skills and input. It meant I could focus on doing my job, and not worry about having to take on a bit of a producer role, or try and direct myself because I’m the only one who knows if the signs are clear. I do feel like over the years I’ve developed producer skills, because I’ve had to, and I’d love to set up my own production company eventually. I’ll keep acting, of course, but I think a deaf-led production company would benefit so many people.

EMILY
Right, you don’t want to be acting or, for this documentary, having an emotional chat and then suddenly stopping to check the camera angles! Some of the scenes are definitely emotional… I found it really affected me, watching you talk to your parents. Seeing you discuss their attitudes then and now… It’s so clear how much love is there. They were so open and honest, even though it must have been difficult. And there was just no support – it’s a similar story for so many parents of deaf children back then.

ROSE
Yeah, it was very hard. Obviously, we love our parents. And to have those sort of conversations in front of a camera; it’s asking a lot of them. It was difficult. I’m so proud of them, and it made me realise that whatever happens in a deaf person’s childhood, it’s not necessarily the parents’ fault. There was no support for my parents whatsoever. And that made me angry. If a child is deaf, then there should be information, advice and support straight away. But they were just left to get on with it, and try to work it out for themselves. It’s hard enough to be a parent without having to muddle through these kind of things too. And then I meet people in the documentary who are having the same experience now. It makes me really angry.

EMILY
Yes, because it’s proven now that access to any language helps children to learn more. So, if a deaf child is taught BSL, it will help them learn English later down the line. And yet parents are still told to steer clear of BSL. It makes me so cross, too. I’m older than you, but our parents were let down in the same way.

ROSE
And the little boy in the documentary, Alfie; his parents are having the same experience right now. My parents had to learn every day, and adapt their attitude, and I had to teach them. What affect has that had on me?

EMILY
For good or bad, you became who you are because of that. Especially for deaf children who never access BSL, or learn it later in life, it can be like finding a whole new part of yourself where communication isn’t so hard. I’m like you in that I had a lot of speech therapy, which means I can speak, although it’s an effort. But in a perfect world I wouldn’t need to speak at all. You often speak rather than sign when you’re talking to hearing people. Is that a specific choice?

ROSE
I’m the same; I’d love the perfect world where we don’t have to put the effort into speaking. But I’m also aware I have a high profile, and if I’m on live television and using an interpreter to voice over my signing, nobody ever hears my voice. I love to sign, but hearing people can easily ignore it, or look away and then I’m not getting through to them, they’re just listening to the interpreter. But if I speak, then it hits them. We do need more signing on TV, of course, but right now I think what I say, and getting people to listen, is more important than how I say it.

EMILY
I completely understand. You want people to hear Rose and feel the impact of your words. Plus, your voice is still a deaf voice, it’s you, and that in itself is powerful. It has its own value.

ROSE
Absolutely, all deaf voices are beautiful. And my emotion is in my voice in the same way it is in my signs. Even the best interpreters wouldn’t feel the same way as I’m feeling, so their voice wouldn’t match me. A few times on Strictly I couldn’t speak well because I was so emotional, and people got to see that. Gio would help me out, and take over, but the audience saw it all.

EMILY
You were such a great pairing.

ROSE
Yes, it was brilliant. We’re still friends, both super busy – all the dancers are so busy – but we’re good friends and of course it was a unique experience we had together that we’ll never forget.

EMILY
And he learned some BSL! Which is always great. Well, I think it’s great… Your appearance on Strictly preceded a huge increase in the number of people signing up to learn BSL. How do you feel about that?

ROSE
I honestly think everyone should have the opportunity to learn sign. There’s a line… For most people it doesn’t matter if your signing isn’t perfect, it’s about having some communication and then you can build on that. We can be harsh, as deaf people, and I understand why, but if you feel judged for your signing then you won’t gain confidence. That’s true of both hearing and deaf learners. Deaf people learn when they are given access, and it might not be until they’re older; that’s not their fault that they’ve grown up not fluent in BSL. We need to try and have patience and be encouraging. However, if someone is learning BSL to become an interpreter, then it’s really important that their skill level is high. That’s the same with anyone who is teaching BSL; they must be skilled, and deaf!

EMILY
Absolutely. As a community, we can carry a lot of pain, but sometimes we need to put it aside in order to move forward.

ROSE
Yes, try and stay open and encouraging. And try to be accepting of different levels of signing skills, or even bilingual deaf people who use spoken English and BSL. The world is moving fast and there’s so many technological advancements… We are relying more and more on technology and there’s a lot of deaf young people who use hearing aids or cochlear implants, and their speech can be amazingly good – there’s a child with a cochlear implant in the documentary learning 3 different languages! That’s not a bad thing. It’s just different, and hopefully deaf children will all be given the chance to learn BSL as well, and have the best of both worlds.

EMILY
We don’t have to continue the old argument of being one or the other, oral or signing; we can make room for everyone.

ROSE
Exactly. And I hope that deaf people will like the documentary, because although it’s my story, it’s also our world and our culture. I wanted to send a message to the hearing community, that we are here.

EMILY
I think you have achieved that. It felt very validating to watch; “Ah it’s not just me! Even Rose feels that way!”. Thank you so much for sharing it with us, and for taking the time to chat today.

ROSE
You’re welcome, I loved it.

Rose Ayling-Ellis: Signs For Change airs tonight, Monday 26th June, at 9pm on BBC One and BBC iPlayer.

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