So many things about being deaf are the same, no matter “how deaf”’ you are, or how you like to communicate.
Most of us can lipread – even if it’s only enough to understand important questions like “Do you want red or white wine?”
Most of us also use subtitles; I’m sure there’d be total uproar if all the subtitles in the world disappeared overnight. Even hearing people love them; they often have them on because they can’t understand people with funny accents.
To watch this article in BSL, click here or press play below:
Some things about being deaf are different, too, though. Some deaf people sign, some don’t.
Some deaf people who don’t sign are totally cool about that – they’re happy to support us BSL users but don’t really seem to be very interested in BSL stuff. Fine – it’s not their thing.
One thing I’ve never understood, though, is why some deaf people who don’t sign keep saying “what about us?” whenever sign language campaigns are mentioned.
I hate to say this, but really, it’s not about them.
Would it be OK for hearing people to represent deaf people? Of course not!
So, why is it OK for deaf non-signers to interfere in BSL users’ issues, often giving negative views and telling us there’s no point in campaigning for a BSL Act because [insert whatever reason]?
Simply being deaf does not make someone an expert on issues relating to everyone else who is deaf – some things are actually language issues, not deaf ones. (If it’s a language you don’t use, then what makes you think you have a say?)
The BDA’s discussion paper, Legal Status for BSL and ISL, was launched at its BSL Symposium on Tuesday 18th March (which was the 11th anniversary of the Government’s recognition of BSL – it’s commonly known as BSL Day, but every day is BSL day for me!).
The 104-page paper, prepared by Dr Sarah Batterbury Magill, explains what could be in a BSL Act, giving an in-depth background to the campaign. It is long, well researched… and extremely clear that this is a language issue.
Yes, we happen to be deaf, but we are also minority language users, and you know what? It’s actually quite complicated.
And that’s the thing. Some things about being deaf are the same – we can’t hear/love subtitles/can lipread bartenders – but some things are completely different. Really.
Sometimes, it’s about language use, not hearing. (This is actually something that Professor Graham Turner illustrated perfectly by signing rather than speaking last week. He still kept getting excluded – “People immediately started treating me as if I were invisible” – without needing to block his ears up with Blu Tack. Precisely my point!)
I could be wrong, but I sometimes get the impression that deaf non-signers think we’re asking for “something extra” from the Government. Kind of like BSL is a bonus thing, in addition to other things we use, like subtitles and lipreading skills.
And is that fair? Perhaps not, but it’s not as if all the subtitles will disappear because we want a BSL Act(!)
At the end of the day, we should be allies and support each other, and if we have nothing positive to say, perhaps we should keep quiet (I’m asking nicely!).
BSL users know what BSL users need – we have enough to worry about without having to battle with other deaf people.
There’s something quite sad about that.
Jen Dodds is a Contributing Editor for The Limping Chicken. When she’s not looking after chickens or children, Jen can be found translating, proofreading and editing stuff over at Team HaDo Ltd (teamhado.com).
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Andy, not him, me.
March 26, 2014
It is discrimination to treat one group more favourably than another. EA2010
Therefore when deaf people see a campaign arguing in favour of better communication support they want to be included. If one group gets support and another does not then that is discrimination. You can’t campaign on the topic of non-discrimination while at the same time discriminating against other people with very similar support needs.
Unfortunately some people have chosen to be adversarial about this. Anyone who tries to reason with them is treated like some kind of enemy. As an IT consultant I was asked by a well known and controversial blogger what he should do about all the vicious attacks on him by Deaf people. My advice was then and is now, to call the cops. The level of bullying on Deaf oriented forums has been beyond belief. I’ve never seen such an outpouring of hate and spite.
Nobody, absolutely nobody has the right to go around being a pain in the arse to everyone else just because of some perceived cultural belief.
jsantini
March 26, 2014
But aren’t there existing campaigns for hearing aids, cochlear implants and speech therapy? It’s almost like the Christian right-wing argument saying that they’re being persecuted because other religions have the temerity to exist. These campaigns aren’t being done to the exclusion of other campaigns-in the UK or the States.
Emma F-C
March 26, 2014
The first comment on this page just simply bring Jen’s points into pure clarity. It is this type of attitude that hinders any type of positive working relationship. Needing BSL to be a recognised language in all parts of society is NOT a “perceived cultural belief”, it is an absolute necessity for many many Deaf people who cannot access English at all. Being at the Sick of It conference yesterday, it was clear this was about accessing health information both in BSL AND English and there were no warmongers saying that there was “too much focus” on BSL because it is clearly a huge barrier for everyone within this community.
Jen Dodds (@deafpower)
March 26, 2014
Andy, this is not a “perceived cultural belief”. It is a real thing. Academics study it. It is taught in many, many educational establishments worldwide. You might like to read Dr Paddy Ladd’s book on Deafhood? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Deaf-Culture-Search-Deafhood/dp/1853595454 – it may help you to understand.
Andy, not him, me.
March 26, 2014
Ah yes! The usual “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about” ploy. Please read the following very carefully.
“A primary issue for those who assert that a Deaf culture exists (the overarching theme of my research), is how to explain the culturation process for the other 90%. ”
Ladd. P “In Search Of Deafhood”.
And it never has been explained, far less peer reviewed.
John David Walker
March 26, 2014
Excellent article. Every time two deaf people fight, it takes attention away from the real culprits – hearing people who make decisions about our lives. The infighting is a legacy of our oppressors when education segregated deaf people into two groups – those who sign and those who don’t. Whenever I see two deaf people fighting, I see the legacies of their oppressors – which is just sad.
Ged
March 26, 2014
Hi I am a hearing adult who has learned a very small amount of BSL, however learning BSL is not where I gained most of my knowledge of the deaf world and deaf culture. I learned most of my knowledge by becoming a member of a lot of deaf groups, the issue of equality and non discrimination is talked about a lot on some of these groups. The reason it is talked about a lot is because it isn’t a ” perceived cultural belief” it is a daily battle against a world that is a) ignorant of the requirements needed to become equal b) ignorant of the daily struggles of all deaf Deaf or HoH people. If our society is to ever treat deaf people equally then we need to stop ask children to interpret a conversation between their mum and, a gynaecologist for instance or their father and a debt counsellor, if we are to treat everyone equally then why should it be out of the ordinary to have communication facilities in place routinely all across the country at ALL levels of society, after all when we go to the doctors or the bank we can hold private conversations about our very important subjects so why can’t that happen for all, here is a scenario just imagine a deaf person going to the barrier at a car park in their car and there’s a problem, what happens ? That crappy little speaker comes on that a hearing person can’t barely hear ( we all had a similar experience I’ll bet ) well a deaf person has no visual clue that anyone is aware that there’s a problem so what happens next ?
Linda Richards
March 26, 2014
Thanks Jen.
You know what, it’s really no different to the Welsh Language Act and the Gaelic Language Act.
It’s about language.
pennybsl
March 26, 2014
Jen’s comments are timely and apt because I attended both the BSL Symposium and Sick of It – both carried a common thread, it is not all about money alone, it is the DIGNITY of being able to live socially-inclusive lives with fewer barriers.
Barriers including attitudinal ones – the most effectively damaging of all, hindering justifiable adjustments and enabling us BSL people’s lives and families’/ households’/ colleagues’/ communities’ lives.
And oh yes, from those circles, there are countless ripple effects throughout the UK every time a BSL person encounters “dead ends” in life’s maze.
I find the cynicial comments ‘against’ Jen’s article unhelpful as a regular Limping Chicken follower, because we LC readers now all know the nitty gritty of why BSL people need to have lives in the big hearing world without enduring the ultra-level of stress on a daily basis.
It is a geniune need to improve our social participation with the cooperation of the wider / mainstream society, by a relatively small list of SIMPLE adjustments in communication and visual cues, as well as access. Our world would have been more advanced and less stressful now had decision-making bodies include trained Deaf people within them in implementing good practice within every strata of public and private service.
That the barriers are still high and obstacles prevailing within both public and private services in the middle of the second decade of the 21th century – nearly 20 years after the Equality Act – are extremely shameful and parallel to extreme racism.
deafmumoftwodeafkids
March 26, 2014
Excellent article.
To respond to “Andy, not him, me” – you said that “It is discrimination to treat one group more favourably than another. EA2010”.
BSL users fighting for our rights is NOT discriminating other disabled groups! Ridiculous!
For example, wheelchair users fighting for ramps to access all public buildings is not discriminating other disabled people!
Why can’t all groups fight to improve each group’s quality of life, be it a wheelchair ramp, BSL access, lipspeakers, braille notices, etc.
Brigitte Francois
March 26, 2014
Jen, what you write is so important! Thank you for thinking through and articulating intelligently these issues.
Richard... theman@thebackofthegarage
March 26, 2014
Well I enjoyed this article, if enjoyed is the right thing to say!? I’m 60 this year and a retired teacher who has gone deaf, or deafened, in the last two years. I live on my own and took up signing as a way of eliminating the onset of my isolation. I’m not saying that all people, who are deaf, or HOH want, or need to sign. It is patronising to the individual. I attended the DC at the B’ham ID and it’s is great however, there are Deaf people there that see deafended people as different and not really being able to understand what the Deaf Community is. I don’t know what it is like to be deaf from birth, or from a very early age, but I know now and I experience at first hand the same difficulties and needs. The question about, is BSL a language, well I suppose if the academics could agree with what a language is, it might help, but for me language is about communicating so I can integrate within all society. A side note; how many academics of Sign are Deaf? There is no one better than me and I’m no better than anyone else. We are all equal and therefore should have equal access and rights. I’m going deaf, but that doesn’t mean I’m less able, it just means I’m deaf. I think The Deaf Community, on the whole are supportive of all that make up that community. There will always be people that think the DC is only for those who have always been deaf, but in my experience they are a minority. We, the deaf are a minority, but it is the Sign Impaired that are the majority and have the problem. It is for the Sign Impaired that the law needs to change and maybe a campaign to this end could help!?
Steve Gargly (@sirgarg)
March 26, 2014
problem is..its the same discussion over and over nothing new, the same people just in agreement the same view from a hearie and not forgetting the gaelic and welsh chestnut.
BSL is a minority language and people would like it better represented and given the respect it needs. Its not about a war amongst the deaf classes but an ongoing awareness of need.
Heidi K. Robertson
March 26, 2014
Spot on Jen, this is something that comes up from time to time, and surprisingly it is always the same few militant non-BSL users who make the comments.. It makes me sad too 🙁 To me it seems to be an issue of using the word ‘deaf’ – they say ‘But we are deaf too! Not all deaf people use BSL!’
It is interesting that in Finland (where I come from), if you are ‘deaf’ it means you use sign language. If you are ‘hard of hearing’, ‘deafened’ or even a person with a ‘hearing disability’, it means you prefer using speech as a communication method and do not have a sign language identity even though you might use signed Finnish while socialising with other HoH people. There are even two separate associations lobbying the rights of the two very different groups: The Finnish Association of the Deaf and The Finnish Federation of Hard of Hearing. They work separately but when it comes to lobbying, they share information and let the other group know of any useful meetings or events. It used be war between the two groups but for the past 15 years or so they have been in peaceful co-existence and even share some projects together where they have similar interests.
Shaneybo
March 27, 2014
hey Heidi – that is quite normal in most of Europe…in fact it used to be the norm in Ireland until England’s “everyone’s deaf” thingy sneaked into our national mentality – but I think a big problem is that most English are not allowed to feel “English” but “British” which makes it harder for them to develop their deaf culture – it appears that there is a strong link between national culture and deaf culture – look at deaf Finns – strong Finnish culture which helps develop their deaf culture – the same for France, Ireland, Scotland etc…England? Ach, the Union Jack & the British Empire mentality. Because of the Empire mentality, people are expected to be more accommodating. When I see David Cameron, I see a man who can’t decide whether he is English or British (for me, he is English – but for him, it is like supporting BNP and all the Der Little Englanders parties – paranoia?)
Another problem is that Oralies (my term for HoH & deafies who dont sign) doesn’t really socialise with each other – they rely on the Deaf community for their emotional, social and sexual needs.
One prime example: one said to me that he goes into the deaf community for his sexual needs. I said “Why not learn SL that way you can have nice deaf boyfriends?” He said “What’s the point? Normal people don’t use it” I corrected him: “Hearing people, not normal people” He shrugged: “Yea, whatever, they are normal, we ain’t!” and I had to lock myself in the bathroom to prevent myself from lamping his stupid face! And he was in my class at a local PHU for years yet my PHU was the biggest in Ireland (with 40 deaf kids)!!!
MW
March 27, 2014
Shaneybo commented on Jen Dodds: BSL users shouldn’t have to battle with other deaf people.
in response to Heidi K. Robertson:
Spot on Jen, this is something that comes up from time to time, and surprisingly it is always the same few militant non-BSL users who make the comments.. It makes me sad too 🙁 To me it seems to be an issue of using the word ‘deaf’ – they say ‘But we are deaf too! […]
hey Heidi – that is quite normal in most of Europe…in fact it used to be the norm in Ireland until England’s “everyone’s deaf” thingy sneaked into our national mentality – but I think a big problem is that most English are not allowed to feel “English” but “British” which makes it harder for them to develop their deaf culture – it appears that there is a strong link between national culture and deaf culture – look at deaf Finns – strong Finnish culture which helps develop their deaf culture – the same for France, Ireland, Scotland etc…England? Ach, the Union Jack & the British Empire mentality. Because of the Empire mentality, people are expected to be more accommodating. When I see David Cameron, I see a man who can’t decide whether he is English or British (for me, he is English – but for him, it is like supporting BNP and all the Der Little Englanders parties – paranoia?)
Another problem is that Oralies (my term for HoH & deafies who dont sign) doesn’t really socialise with each other – they rely on the Deaf community for their emotional, social and sexual needs.
One prime example: one said to me that he goes into the deaf community for his sexual needs. I said “Why not learn SL that way you can have nice deaf boyfriends?” He said “What’s the point? Normal people don’t use it” I corrected him: “Hearing people, not normal people” He shrugged: “Yea, whatever, they are normal, we ain’t!” and I had to lock myself in the bathroom to prevent myself from lamping his stupid face! And he was in my class at a local PHU for years yet my PHU was the biggest in Ireland (with 40 deaf kids)!!!
Is this link Missing received in my email? so added to follow on my comment ….
Another problem is that Oralies (my term for HoH & deafies who dont sign) doesn’t really socialise with each other – they rely on the Deaf community for their emotional, social and sexual needs
@Shaneybo
As for my emotional, social and sexual needs what you are saying is total bollocks and you are being too generalist with oralies. Some Deaf people travel into the hearing world for their emotional, social and sexual needs and some like it better than the Deaf world. I think you are being a stereotypical here.
I am oralie, not of my own making, but from the time as a child who had no power to overrule ‘medical’ (sic) professionals. My parents were vulnerable and influenced in their decision making by those professionals to institutionalise me in a school “they saw fit”. It was a good school as I know BIRKDALE. I am lucky not to have been in some other deaf school that has a much poor educational provision and I could have been worse off.
However, that is not to say, I approved their method of teaching – it was not good – I much preferred the total communication route and this might have help my well being as a better more rounded deaf person.
Shaneybo, I am uncomfortable with this kind of statement on this Limping Chicken as having or making a vitriolic attack with an attitude. However, I take it on the chin. If I say like for like – Hand flappers would you be feeling upset that I was being derogatory towards deaf culture with my attitude? I do so hate these conflicts.
Just for your information I did pay to take up sign language lesson which are not offered for free to oralie as you call us by Deaf tutors. Questioning often why Deaf community doesn’t role its sleeves up to offer sign language for free for deaf oralies.
I was grateful to have some teaching so late in the day and being taught at the time was interpreters and social workers – yes! I am an old man now – in those days there weren’t many deaf tutors! They were hearing and I found it hard to learn working with them until a deaf man came along and taught me – I learnt fast but I cannot manage to do it fluently and still struggling to this day.
Next issue Shaneybo, is a psychological one. I was brought up to listen and learn by my hearing peers feeling constantly drained and constantly in fear of having to communicate in spoken language not knowing that there was another language that I could benefit from – apart from my mothers tongue – Welsh – which my family was advised to refrain from teaching us this language, in case this affect our ability to
lip-read and learn spoken English.
Birkdale did use us as guinea pigs in their so called experiment to prove that the Oral method works – but my parent no fault theirs had wanted what was best for us like any parents – to fit into society as best as possible and not to fall into a ghetto of being dependent.
Now when I am out in society I speak but not in the sense I am “normal” or “hearing” but having a deaf accent. I DO NOT look down on deaf people using BSL but envy their ability to use it well but can see that they are dependent on interpreters for a better quality of life as I do now.
What is impacting and affecting me say in a group we have hearing and deaf people – automatically I use spoken English and I cannot do sign language – not that I do not want to – but being programmed into me as a child. This is an automatic ability instilled in me in the presence of hearing peers – says how the affect hearing peers had on me as a child to this day. I am now aware and striving daily to stop this habit.
I often sign but as one deaf signed to me – geez you sign foreign undermined my confidence and deaf BSL user need to stop this kind of bullying and be less judgemental and more supportive. I also get anxious signing and it gets into a mess. As one good BSL friend says you sign best in BSL when you have had a drink! But I don’t want to be using BSL when drunk!
Yes I have to live with this cruel label “you” have given me since you cannot see beyond that and see me as a person with a name – it has to have “something with it” to satisfy you. Pray continue barking us down with this label since this doesn’t help UNITY as you are in a group called DISPARITY and that doesn’t help win the argument for deaf culture. I am on your side – I am deaf, oral educated and can do sign but not well. I don’t feel part of it when you preach it in this way and it is in no way a fault mine; we have to mend our ways as we grow old repairing the damages so we are told and deciding who we want to be and not what deaf culture want us to be to be mentally well. Those sorts of attacks makes so many of us mentally unwell.
Shaneybo – tolerance is a necessity in this diverse world and I don’t spit into deaf culture faces – I have tolerance/respect and have I an understanding dignity. One as to give equality in the community we live in. I had thought deaf community was united on the basis that we are deaf and that’s that. You sounded very Evangelist intolerance with a one track mind/opinion that BSL is the only thing that matters what bollocks – it is one part of many things in deaf culture!
MW
March 27, 2014
Another problem is that Oralies (my term for HoH & deafies who dont sign) doesn’t really socialise with each other – they rely on the Deaf community for their emotional, social and sexual needs
@Shaneybo
As for my emotional, social and sexual needs what you are saying is total bollocks and you are being too generalist with oralies. Some Deaf people travel into the hearing world for their emotional, social and sexual needs and some like it better than the Deaf world. I think you are being a stereotypical here.
I am oralie, not of my own making, but from the time as a child who had no power to overrule ‘medical’ (sic) professionals. My parents were vulnerable and influenced in their decision making by those professionals to institutionalise me in a school “they saw fit”. It was a good school as I know BIRKDALE. I am lucky not to have been in some other deaf school that has a much poor educational provision and I could have been worse off.
However, that is not to say, I approved their method of teaching – it was not good – I much preferred the total communication route and this might have help my well being as a better more rounded deaf person.
Shaneybo, I am uncomfortable with this kind of statement on this Limping Chicken as having or making a vitriolic attack with an attitude. However, I take it on the chin. If I say like for like – Hand flappers would you be feeling upset that I was being derogatory towards deaf culture with my attitude? I do so hate these conflicts.
Just for your information I did pay to take up sign language lesson which are not offered for free to oralie as you call us by Deaf tutors. Questioning often why Deaf community doesn’t role its sleeves up to offer sign language for free for deaf oralies.
I was grateful to have some teaching so late in the day and being taught at the time was interpreters and social workers – yes! I am an old man now – in those days there weren’t many deaf tutors! They were hearing and I found it hard to learn working with them until a deaf man came along and taught me – I learnt fast but I cannot manage to do it fluently and still struggling to this day.
Next issue Shaneybo, is a psychological one. I was brought up to listen and learn by my hearing peers feeling constantly drained and constantly in fear of having to communicate in spoken language not knowing that there was another language that I could benefit from – apart from my mothers tongue – Welsh – which my family was advised to refrain from teaching us this language, in case this affect our ability to
lip-read and learn spoken English.
Birkdale did use us as guinea pigs in their so called experiment to prove that the Oral method works – but my parent no fault theirs had wanted what was best for us like any parents – to fit into society as best as possible and not to fall into a ghetto of being dependent.
Now when I am out in society I speak but not in the sense I am “normal” or “hearing” but having a deaf accent. I DO NOT look down on deaf people using BSL but envy their ability to use it well but can see that they are dependent on interpreters for a better quality of life as I do now.
What is impacting and affecting me say in a group we have hearing and deaf people – automatically I use spoken English and I cannot do sign language – not that I do not want to – but being programmed into me as a child. This is an automatic ability instilled in me in the presence of hearing peers – says how the affect hearing peers had on me as a child to this day. I am now aware and striving daily to stop this habit.
I often sign but as one deaf signed to me – geez you sign foreign undermined my confidence and deaf BSL user need to stop this kind of bullying and be less judgemental and more supportive. I also get anxious signing and it gets into a mess. As one good BSL friend says you sign best in BSL when you have had a drink! But I don’t want to be using BSL when drunk!
Yes I have to live with this cruel label “you” have given me since you cannot see beyond that and see me as a person with a name – it has to have “something with it” to satisfy you. Pray continue barking us down with this label since this doesn’t help UNITY as you are in a group called DISPARITY and that doesn’t help win the argument for deaf culture. I am on your side – I am deaf, oral educated and can do sign but not well. I don’t feel part of it when you preach it in this way and it is in no way a fault mine; we have to mend our ways as we grow old repairing the damages so we are told and deciding who we want to be and not what deaf culture want us to be to be mentally well. Those sorts of attacks makes so many of us mentally unwell.
Shaneybo – tolerance is a necessity in this diverse world and I don’t spit into deaf culture faces – I have tolerance/respect and have I an understanding dignity. One as to give equality in the community we live in. I had thought deaf community was united on the basis that we are deaf and that’s that. You sounded very Evangelist intolerance with a one track mind/opinion that BSL is the only thing that matters what bollocks – it is one part of many things in deaf culture!
Shaneybo
March 27, 2014
You went to Birkdale…that puts you in the core i.e. you are deaf-school-deafie which automatically makes you a BSL deafie somehow. You are one of us even though you may not feel like it.
Most of my Birkdale mates are good with BSL (even if they are not 100% perfect – but its often the case for most hearies with their English i.e. I have better (written) English than my hearing parents and hearing brothers yet my BSL isn’t 100% perfect because my boarding school is pro-oralism but I respect BSL as a language and I make efforts to use BSL and support it as a community language in the deaf community – and use English on deaf forums. Seems fair no?
Of course, deafies do have issues once we leave our oral schools…I know because I was one of them…I was such a real dickhead and a former oralie who can’t even speak and saw sign language as the last resort (even though my parents had a very positive attitude towards sign language) – I cant believe that I used to turn down interpreters and ask for notetakers – that is typical surdophobia – I was so obsessed with the English language – but deaf leaders in Belfast were quite brutal with me, slapping reality into me…if it wasn’t for them, I won’t be here…a happy confident independent deafie that is me 🙂
Good to know that you have respect for deaf culture, MW – many people don’t: and we don’t need that in this very fragile & fragmented deaf community.
As for sexual needs, it is obvious you are not one of them…but the fact remains that we do have many in their 30s & 40s coming into the deaf community for one thing…and it saddens me (mind you, I did have a hearing boyf for 5 years)
John Wilon
March 26, 2014
Spot on! Well done, Jen. A very well written, calm and balanced view with every point clearly explained. I have always been baffled by the BSL bashers’ negative views everytime I tried to express my views as a BSL user whenever access issues are being discussed esp in museums and art galleries, as they seem to think that there is one method of communication to suit ALL deaf people, which as everybody know is perfectly ridiculous. So hopefully,we can forge ahead and aim for a common aim that will cover all the needs of ALL deaf people, never mind how diverse they are.
Pardoner
March 26, 2014
Non-signing deaf people don’t always have very good lipreading skills, so they have access issues too. Hearing people tend to think that one size fits all, so if they provide a BSL interpreter then it will meet the access needs of non-signers too. Unfortunately it doesn’t.
Asher Woodman-Worrell
March 26, 2014
@Pardoner I can’t agree more, unfortunately this also has a reserve effect. If hearing people meet a deaf person who are proficient at lipspeaking/reading then they will think all deaf people are the same.
However, instead of moaning at every announcement or developments of BSL campaigns, we all should be supportive, I am happy to sign a petition to support a campaign for say an EDM to reserve changes to ATW for provision of lipspeakers because at the end of the day, they are deaf like me, they share my pain and if they achieve their aims then world will be slightly be a better place and I will rather to see oral deaf community to achieve something rather than none for both BSL and oral users.
Instead of moaning, people should seek on how to ensure their needs are also included by contacting that organisation to see if their needs can be included or to start a new Grampian either solely on their needs or based on all needs of deaf community.
The progress of recent Communications Bill showed it is possible for all organisations to work together and everyone are starting to smell the coffee that an united front is the way forward so we all should capitalise on this rather than be a cyber warrior.
Ged
March 26, 2014
In my earlier reply I wasn’t campaigning for all to learn BSL or interpreters to be present in all areas, I was saying that if deaf Deaf or HoH people stand any chance of equality then visual aids etc should be common place…..why can a blind person go in some lifts without any problems…..because the audible cues are quite commonplace now and the buttons have Braille on some of them, so why can visual cues for deaf people not be commonplace and interpreters available easily and all public buildings have loop systems etc etc……we have to first think equally before we can act equally
From Preston
March 26, 2014
Pardoner – Therefore if a person does not have good lipreading skills which creates access issues, as you rightly suggest, then perhaps they should consider learning BSL and then some of their access issues could be addressed? As a Deaf signer and lipreader I still struggle at times to lipread some people for a whole gamit of reasons; lighting, bad setting, bad mouth patterns etc, and as you allude to, it is a skill, thus some will be more able than others. BSL is a rich and full language and as we know people who lipread do not have access to that and in fact miss out on a great percentage of information.
Natalya D
March 26, 2014
I’d like to answer why some of us less signing deaf are jumping up and down.
Search for deaf access to healthcare and most of the results are Big D sign language users issues, nothing about those of us who share the issues but don’t primarily sign. We oralies can’t book appointments cos of phone issues; we can’t hear our names called out in waiting rooms; we can’t understand rushed medics who won’t speak slowly or use deaf awareness etc etc. I’m also not convinced all non-signers actually have good English skills.
As non signers we often get asked “do you want an interpreter” and when we say “No thanks, we would like STTR or a lipspeaker” the hearing world doesn’t know what to do. They have never heard of STTR or lipspeakers, only sign language interpreters. Many believe all deaf people sign and that if you don’t sign you can’t really be that deaf – triple that if your speech is clear and they can’t conceptualise that doesn’t mean we hear any better. Sometimes we’re told we cannot have STTR or lipspeaking (or indeed other comms support options) because there is no policy for it, the organisation doesn’t know how to book it.
Sometimes on discovering we can’t sign (or sign well) we get told by wider hearing world and some Deaf signers “Well why don’t you go and learn sign then?” as if it’s really easy. It isn’t, classes are extremely expensive, not all of us live near a Deaf signing community, for many of us sign isn’t useful or desired. And while we’re saying it as it is, sometimes Deaf BSL users bully less-signing people for being poor at sign or for not signing in ‘pan-deafness’ events. I’m lucky I’ve never experienced that, but I have heard enough from those who have to be saddened and angered by that. As Paddy Ladd said, that is structural audism at work and doesn’t help any of us.
The majority of people in the UK with levels of deafness are not signers. Many are elderly deafened people, some are deafened adults or people who went deaf after learning to speak. I have no issue with BSL only campaigns, but I take GREAT issue with BSL users claiming the issues which affect you are yours and yours alone.
For the sake of a few words in reports like Sick of It could say “while out of the scope of this report about BSL users needs, many of these issues affect non-signing deaf and hard of hearing people too – we hope research is carried out about their needs too”. In the EDM about the AtW 30 hours campaign, that’s affecting lippspeaker and STTR users too. Again, it feels like the BSL users are just refusing to add a handful of words to say “and other communication support” which wouldn’t dilute your issues and would be a massive headsup to us.
At the moment as a mostly oralie but partial signer it feels like being bisexual all over again. The “lesbian and gay” which doesn’t include the non-monosexual experience and reality. “Gay” doesn’t mean LGBT, and BSL does not mean all deaf.
I piss off some of the oralies too cos I won’t stand for anti-BSL user rhetoric, I don’t think it is BSL users’ fault that the wider hearing world notices the most visible form of deafness and tries to apply it to all of us. However I do ask that we stop having this artificial divide of big D and little d. I do ask that for the sake of a handful of words that BSL users remember your issues are not unique. I also ask that non-signers remember BSL specific issues and when we’re campaigning we cover those.
I am really hurt to constantly be told off because I want to be recognised too. I want my mixed experience of being an oralie and signer to be recognised. I wasn’t allowed BSL as a child even when I wanted it, that’s audism. I struggle to learn sign as an adult and that’s complicated by other disabilities (signing is hard when you have hand and arm problems) which 40% of those with childhood deafness potentially have.
Instead of telling us off for speaking out. Why don’t you guys engage with us and ask us why we’re speaking out. Why don’t you stop taking the tone argument with us and listen to what we’re asking for, cos it’s really not very much at all, just a few words acknowledging that it is not only BSL users who have those issues.
It isn’t just about language, none of the recent issues I’ve stuck my neck out on have been purely about linguistic minority stuff. All of those issues have been also about practical issues of access and rights – some of those issues have not been anything like exclusive to BSL users.
I want to talk and I want to share. I want to stop this endless fighting in deaf communities which has existed for as long as I’ve sought out deaf spaces. I want us to listen to one another all round and instead of saying “But this is OUR time/space/issue” say “Maybe we can be more inclusive like this or that” while still retaining our focus.
I have actually said I don’t mind signhealth just writing about BSL issues and healthcare, especially as it is obvious to me some of the issues are much more serious for BSL users and the organisation is called signhealth which is a clue in the name. I still say for the sake of one line it would have been worth mentioning non signers though – cos the chances of those of us who don’t sign well enough for terps finding an organisation to fund an equivalent research study is very small.
mjfahey
March 26, 2014
Well said Natalie… will everyone also take a deep breath and read this from Natalie please?
also think about what Heidi says about Finland…” There are even two separate associations lobbying the rights of the two very different groups: The Finnish Association of the Deaf and The Finnish Federation of Hard of Hearing. They work separately but when it comes to lobbying, they share information and let the other group know of any useful meetings or events. It used be war between the two groups but for the past 15 years or so they have been in peaceful co-existence and even share some projects together where they have similar interests.”
What a power we could be working together! You know it makes sense…
Pippa Jones
March 27, 2014
Natalya, this has put things into perspective and I’m glad I read what you had to say. However this is not the case here; the case is supporting one another.
I must say, some ways you seem to be against the whole thing, some ways your not. Why have you decided to speak up now? It has been years of us protesting for BSL to not just be recognised. It’s only now we finally have a chance to do something about it.
Not every Deaf individual will bully one with a little d. I, for one am profoundly deaf and I communicate in BSL only from the age of 17. Before that I used spoken language. I have engaged with people that don’t sign and I can only imagine how hard it is for you. It is all about balance. Deaf education started with educators fighting for Deaf people to be taught in sign language, because it met some Deaf peoples needs and intellect. Others followed the Oralism method. Due to the history of deaf education, Oralism influenced ALL deaf pupils to speak; only to find they were not at all educated, they were trained to speak despite learning……nothing. They were not educated for the wider community. Now we still face those barriers! Interpreters is not easy to get in hospitals, so for them to ask I must say is a surprise!
Oralism is th main communication method and is being encouraged through early intervention and by professionals because of ‘integration’ to the hearing community. What the government don’t understand is that our minds are all different. Like Jen Dodds has stated above. You may feel it’s not needed, but there are many others who need it everyday.
We are talking about language input and it’s benefits for those that need it. Not the problems we face in health care services. We both face different barriers but alls the same.
I am a oralie, I go to the doctors and I don’t have an interpreter and I face the same problems. But it’s not about that now. Not yet anyway. It’s about me supporting other deaf people who are misunderstood everyday, not as a Deaf person but as a signer…
robertmduncan
March 26, 2014
The Oxygen of BSL
Jen, well said, and a shame that one or two of the responses illustrate exactly the problem you are highlighting. If I could suggest a metaphor (not new) that may help people get their heads round the issue…
On an aeroplane, you’re always told that, in the event of an emergency, you should “put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others”. Very sensible, because if you can’t breathe, you can’t assist other people.
The oxygen that Deaf BSL users need is BSL! So what they and their allies need to focus on is getting them access to and through BSL. If other people start jumping up and down and pulling their arms saying, ”What about my oxygen mask?! You should be helping me put that on as well!” – all it means is that everybody is getting in a fankle, nobody is putting their mask on, and they will all suffocate. Once you get your own oxygen mask on, then you can assist other people with theirs – to which they are equally entitled, and which may be for a different form of oxygen. Everybody can then breathe more easily.
Well said again – it’s sparked one of the most immediate and lively responses ever. I hope it helps everybody – Deaf, hard-of-hearing, deafened, whoever – focus on the positive way ahead in supporting each other.
John Wilson
March 26, 2014
Lovely metaphor and so succiently put!
Richard... theman@thebackofthegarage
March 26, 2014
Did anyone else hear that the British’s Government are now going to introduce compulsory learning of a language for all Primary children.. well although I don’t think that is a new idea… what an opportunity is now waiting for BSL and all Sign Languages!? There is no restrict on which language is taught. We all know that one of the unique and often forgotten features, is that Sign Language permeates every other language on the planet, so wouldn’t it be great if children could learn the fantastic language that is Signing, the structure, use, historical and global significance of this language. Wouldn’t this help to elevate the ignorance, arrogance and intolerance that we are talking about here?
Lana
March 26, 2014
Well done Jen.. we Deafies and BSL users in same boat as you know that there is a need to improve our daily communication problem/barriers in the hearing world. I get irritated with Deaf oralists and less signers who think and say that they have same problems like us. This is untrue.. Terry, my partner is totally Deaf, BSL user and a BSL teacher BUT there is difference between us.. I am unable to make a proper conversation with hearing people whilst he could manage easily! It makes me think if the Deafies have free speech lessons and the less signers have free BSL lessons.. would this solve all our problems??
Natalya Dell
March 26, 2014
Having engaged with Jen elseweb we both think I might have misunderstood her article, so I’m taking a more careful reread and recomment (leaving my original up) and if she gets time with all those chickens and children 🙂 she’ll try and come back to my original comment in more detail or maybe respond to this one.
I should make it clearer that I heartily agree with the first three paragraphs about shared deaf experiences.
The fourth paragraph about some of us sign, and some of us don’t might be the crux of some of my issues. What perhaps upset me which wasn’t Jen’s intent or fault is that I’m not a signer, but I don’t not-sign either.
What limited SSEish sign I have, I value greatly and worked hard and went into debt to learn because I wasn’t willing to burden my local signing deaf community with the entire responsibility of educating me when they already had limited enough BSL signing time. I also have other disabilities which limit my energy for travelling around to spend time with signers and if I sign for more than an hour or so at a time I end up in severe pain which makes me sad. Learning what little sign I have is one of the best thing I ever did.
I actually believe a BSL act would make it easy to dismantle structural audism and increase the use of sign language amongst hearing and non-signing deaf people. A BSL act would increase deaf people’s rights to BSL interpreters and I actually believe by extension would make it easier for those of us who prefer STTR or lipspeakers (or other some or all of the time) to demand those on the same terms under the Equality Act.
I hope a BSL act would entitle me as an oral-educated deaf person to more affordable, flexible and appropriate BSL classes and support to get my head around a grammar system in a 2nd language when I don’t even really understand the grammar of my first one (English).
I think I reacted to some of the things said in comments which were not said by Jen herself and for that I apologise.
I agree with Jen that those who don’t use BSL or sign language as preferred or fluent language should not be denigrating sign language campaigns and definitely shouldn’t be attacking a BSL act which is as Jen points out about a minority language (and can be for some of us about increased access too).
I am going to try and be more publicly supportive of BSL campaigns and share them with hearing people I know and keep challenging deaf people who publicly denigrate the campaigns for existing.
I do however also stand by the substance of the comments I have made about other recent high profile campaigns about asking all campaigns on deaf issues to take a little time to try and be as inclusive as possible even if it is just a single line or recognition that there are some gaps these campaigns are perpetuating.
I hope that makes my position more clear and that once I’ve worked out some logistics (accessibility across English and sign mediums for a start) that people from all experiences will join me in some mediation work between different groups of deaf people where we ALL take a chance to listen to one another’s experiences and work out what we can and should be sharing; what we should be supporting as allies of one another’s specific needs and when to not attack one another (which is not the same as healthy challenge).
Maybe we can have deaf communities which don’t just have fights all the time! 🙂
Graham Turner
March 26, 2014
Brave words, Natalya. Good on you for looking again. I think you’re right that sometimes a few extra words can show respect to non-signing deaf people. It’s important to try and consider carefully which arguments are just seeking action to advance the signing community, and which cut across groups. And I agree with those who have said ‘when it is a sign language issue, we have to be allowed to present it as one’ – because the level of public misunderstanding about signing is SO high, that any seeds of confusion rapidly grow into an impenetrable briar thicket.
Natalya Dell
March 26, 2014
I have actually just ordered a copy after being impressed with him on See Hear the other day – not at all as I had expected from some of the things “said” about him.
Sveta
March 26, 2014
Many also forget about deaf/hoh people who use Cued Speech: http://www.cuedspeech.co.uk/.
I wrote an article about this: http://audio-accessibility.com/news/2012/11/cued-speech-too-oral-for-signers-and-too-visual-for-oralists/
Alasdair Grant
March 26, 2014
An interesting debate. I can see both sides of the argument, having been an oralie until I started at Bristol University at 19. I thought that I was like a hearing person, but later realised that I was actually a member of a cultural and linguistic minority. BSL has helped me to gain improved academic qualifications. My scientific career was nearly destroyed thanks to oralism! I couldn’t follow the lecturers at University – until Amazon and online academic journals came along – thank goodness for Amazon – plenty of books and journal articles to read. No more hours of extensive lip-reading – I can read this on paper.
Jen Dodds (@deafpower)
March 26, 2014
Natalya, thanks for taking the time to read my post again *and* comment again! No need to apologise!
I agree with you and Graham that maybe a little bit of extra info about non signing deaf people would be good where it is relevant. A fair point.
I’m sorry to say that history has shown that BSL issues DO get ‘diluted’ when non signers get involved. (Why do you think BSL recognition was so rubbish? That was one reason, thanks to several organisations with vested interests – that’s just one example, though.)
Also, it’s just WRONG that deaf people should have to pay to learn BSL. I think ALL deaf children and their families should be offered the option of BSL lessons; whether they want to use BSL or not, at least they’ll be making a proper choice about it. Then later on, deaf kids should have some kind of deaf-related education – perhaps a kids’ version of Deaf Studies? – we grow up not knowing our own language or history! That’s just crazy.
In fact, why not teach *all* children to sign, for free? They’re probably more likely to go to school with/work with a deaf person than a French person, after all.
Finally, many thanks to everyone who has commented on this – here, on Twitter on Facebook and via email(!) It’s been quite overwhelming, and obviously there is an issue.
I hope we can solve it somehow – and maybe even be like those very cool people in Finland!!
MW
March 26, 2014
“Disparity” is the root of all our problems whereas “Unity” has failed us. There has been too much of the “conflict of interest” by certain elements in the system.
Might that be the cause of our conflict?
Jen makes a valid input in her contribution just as much as a non sign language user if given the chance and we all feel safe in this confrontations. Neither side has gained much ground for harmony in this debate.
Non-sign language users in my opinion failed to offer a contribution that did not want to talk of languages but instead wanted to focussed on access to the debate.
I feel that access is required that meets the needs of person-centred values and it should not be a political football within the NHS.
Have we missed a trick here? I sense commercialism came creeping into play in the conference and I won’t expand further here for fear of attack.
I was sharing some of the findings of the Sign Health report “Sick of It” with an external person and that person was quick to call it “Sick to Deaf”. I was shocked how they had perceived it. I speak cynically, constantly seeing report after report, money being wasted and no logical resolution and an outcome for a strategy on how to get this sorted and to hear this comment – shows what people think of it.
I paid my fee but I did not have the opportunity to raise a question because for some odd reasons the Chair’s eyes tended to look at the right rather than the left – joking apart – it was a revelation that on the right was a mass of BSL users looking at the sign language interpreters. There were on the left deaf people too but I could not catch the Chair’s attention in a discrete manner in order to have a say. Does this have a reason why I was not gaining attention? The persaon chairing is hearing I believe an dmight nto quite understood diversity of deafness in the audience.
I didn’t feel it was value for money but grateful that the fee was reduced because I attended but I felt non-BSL users should have made a greater contribution. If I had paid the full wack I would want to ask for it back. The buffet lunch was lacking in value.
Natalie I liked your article and I hope you dont feel too injurred by having to pain yourself to write what was a very good comment to highlight diversity and communication. Being me and that is me is who you are and that how we should value.
Everyone was good in their contributions and I am wondering if this can be evened out in the end.
I ofetn feel lonely in the hearing world but sometime feels much worse in the deaf world. I am more active in the deaf world says a lot about the political damages happening here.
Shaneybo
March 27, 2014
After 5 years absence from England’s deaf politics, upon my return, it seems that England’s deaf community has turned RNID-lite with pro-BSL deafies screaming “We must accommodate all deaf people!” yet they don’t make efforts to “introduce” newcomers to the deaf community. Double standards maybe but is it because they were forced to show “tolerance and willingness to accommodate” to a point they are not even sure how to move forward? The deaf community is united by one thing which is BSL (like it or not) and if you want to join the community, use BSL. We won’t tolerate hearies who can’t sign…yet why do we have to tolerate oralies (deafies who dont sign) and deafies who belittles our community? Of course we support their rights…and they our rights…but it doesn’t mean we ll have to give up our dynamic, vibrant, close-knitted & family-like community & culture for the ones who grew up isolated & cut off – they are more than welcome to join our Big Family…but they cannot expect to have every right to spit in our face and change everything around!
mjfahey
March 28, 2014
Shaneybo, Time and time again I (and others) have tried to join in with and become part of your “Big Family” by paying exorbinate fees to learn BSL and practise with the experts…only to be ignored and made to feel unwelcome simply because as you say” it doesn’t mean we ll have to give up our dynamic, vibrant, close-knitted & family-like community & culture for the ones who grew up isolated & cut off – they are more than welcome to join our Big Family” I find this totally crazy…please make your mind up…you want to help us you need to accept us…into your presence in order for us to learn BSL
Shaneybo
March 28, 2014
I welcome you with open arms. It would be nice if more deafies can do the same…rather than saying things to please you yet not making efforts to get you involved 🙁 and it SUCKS that you have to fork out a lot of money for something you were denied for a very long time 🙁 It pisses me off as it still happens to thousands of deaf kids & people in this day 🙁
Richard... theman@thebackofthegarage
March 28, 2014
There is 1 World, I community, I place that we all have to share… There will always be people who hold different views form you, but that’s exactly what it is, a view, an opinion and it doesn’t mean it is the right. A person’s view, or opinion is as valid as anyone else, but if it doesn’t fit with you, then be gracious in accepting their thoughts and move on. Look for those that follow your thoughts. Live is too short to argue about something you can not change. I sign and I speak too, so what does that make me. I’m a member of this big family, if someone doesn’t like it, then that’s their problem, not mine!
Natalya Dell
April 1, 2014
@Jen cos my commenting doesn’t seem to be threading… Thank you for being so nice – I don’t mind apologising if I mess up especially when people are nice about it.
I agree that full bilingual access and indeed BSL for hearing people would be really useful. Lots of people find BSL helps them with other skills.
I do also see your point about dilution of campaigns, it is a really hard balance. I see the House of Lords debate on the signhealth report misses the point horribly for the most part. I think getting people to have clue about complex things or even varied experience things is hard…
I am assuming Finland has something a bit like Sweden where each deaf child + their family is entitled to many hours of paid for sign tuition which helps create different markets e.g. children sign, deafies improving sign etc and means that there is proper use of terps and accessible info. A friend of mine in the UK is learning Finnish sign at the moment.
Natalya Dell
April 1, 2014
For what it’s worth, while I know of people who talk of being bullied by BSL using Deaf people, I was welcomed, supported, given helpful advice on how not to be annoying such as maintain eye contact, keep trying and don’t give up cos that’s rude – try alternative signs, fingerspelling, writing down if you must but don’t just speaky lipspeak and expect deafies to do all the work. Don’t hog any one person’s attention for ages, spend fewer minutes with more people, let it be known you won’t keep flogging a conversation beyond your limits and people will happily give you 10 mins even if it’s a bit dull for them cos they know you’ll move on and they have the other 1hr50 mins etc and you’ll get better quicker with variety of signing. Don’t take over and terp for signing people unless asked or part of a shared group attempt to follow stuff. Don’t be rude about BSL users’ English, if you don’t understand something online, say so without being judgemental… I’m sure there was more, but some of this stuff was invaluable as manners. I wonder if there is a manners for signing space 101 with some dos and don’ts and tips and tricks for the newbie.
I was also treated with kindness and understanding about my limitations in signing both in duration and in what my hands will actually do handshape and movement wise. People helped me work out best ways to sign around my impaired hands, “This region’s sign is might work better for you” and more. People don’t complaint when I drop down to 1 handed signing when my worse arm fails and are happy to mix and match BSL and ASL fingerspelling if that makes things clearer.
I think while some signers do bully non-signers especially in pan-deafness spaces where all deaf folk should be welcome, there are also non-signers who turn up in signing space (as distinct from deaf space) and behave badly and very selfishly without necessarily realising it. I remember one lad who used to come to the same signing pub night I went to and TALK AT people which was boring and tiring. His hearing was so bad (progressively worsening) that even 1:1 in silent room he couldn’t understand most spoken language, yet he wouldn’t learn sign reliably, not even basic what/why/when/where/how and ABCs which is a few hour’s work. He would cling to one person (sometimes me, as fellow oralie) and follow them around ALL night even when they were beyond bored and had said so after hints hadn’t worked. He refused to recognise the signing space was the two hours a week many people had not to have to speak and listen and lipread but could relax and just sign. Not only was he not willing to learn sign, but he was invading a precious space and not recognising that if he didn’t want to sign then that wasn’t a space for him. He would have been better off finding or setting up an oralie deaf night which I might well have gone along to as well.
I have now got my delivery of Paddy Ladd’s book which is chunkier than I expected. I shall try and digest that over the next few weeks and think about how we can recognise our past hurts and move forward to a more constructive, kind and hopeful unity of deafnesses.
Pam
April 8, 2014
long story and same before around again negative. I have fed up with them mask benevolence deaf people.